The person we are replying to is someone who wanted the absolute basics. Getting into the nuances of minor Syndicalist movements, the historical Utopian Socialists like Saint-Simon, or other forms really isn’t relevant unless you want to dig deeper.
Historically, the 2 largest and most significant strands of Leftist thinking and practice have been Marxist and Anarchist, and there are no non-Communist Marxists. I mean this absolutely, 99.9% of existing leftism has been either Marxist or Anarchist. They don’t need to understand the subtle differences in Yugoslavian Marxism or Russian or Chinese or Cuban, because they all are forms of Marxism.
Further still, again, Communism comes after Socialism. It isn’t a form of Socialism.
Further still, again, Communism comes after Socialism. It isn’t a form of Socialism.
Only if you define “socialism” only as “the transition period between capitalism and communism.”
And I do not. Because, again, I am not a Marxist-Leninist.
And it seems like you have some all-encompassing need to label everything, but I would say many people on the left do not subscribe to an individual label like you seem to think that they do.
Socialism is generally a form of society where public ownership and collectivization is the driving force of the economy. Communism is when that process is complete. There are various different forms and characteristics Socialism takes, but they all exist in motion and thus will either move on to Communism or revert to Capitalism. To call Communism a type of Socialism would be to call Capitalism a type of Feudalism, just because both have property owners, but this of course is not a good form of analysis.
I understand that you aren’t a Marxist-Leninist. I am, sure, but again I made the very clear case that the overwhelming majority of Leftism worldwide and historically has fallen under the categories of Marxism, which is without fail Communist, or Anarchist. These aren’t necessarily ML specific points of view, if you can point to major non-Marxist, non-Anarchist strains of Leftist practice that have any major relevance, then I can concede.
As for Leftists that don’t ascribe to labels, I don’t really care about what one individual is thinking, because I am not trying to prepare them for random internet leftist #18948 with their own specific eccentricities. I am talking in extremely broad and relevant distinctions, like what has actually existed and continues to exist.
but they all exist in motion and thus will either move on to Communism or revert to Capitalism.
This is just not true… We have seen that, in practice, this does not need to be true. For example, market socialism exists. Mixed economies exist (and thrive).
I look forward to hearing why none of those pass your purity test.
“Market Socialism,” if you mean the PRC’s Socialist Market Economy, is founded on Marxism. They maintain that they are working towards Communism and are working with a Marxian understanding of the economy. This isn’t about “purity,” rather, this is Marxist and is working towards Communism, so it’s a Communist ideology.
As for mixed economies, such a naming distinction is rather pointless. All economies are mixed, there exists no economy that does not have characteristics of the previous mode of production or the next. Whether a system is Capitalist or Socialist is determinate on what is primary in an economy, not what is “pure.”
Further still, no system is stagnant, competition forces centralization, so Market Socialism eventually works towards either a resurgance of Capitalism or progression to Communism.
The person we are replying to is someone who wanted the absolute basics. Getting into the nuances of minor Syndicalist movements, the historical Utopian Socialists like Saint-Simon, or other forms really isn’t relevant unless you want to dig deeper.
Historically, the 2 largest and most significant strands of Leftist thinking and practice have been Marxist and Anarchist, and there are no non-Communist Marxists. I mean this absolutely, 99.9% of existing leftism has been either Marxist or Anarchist. They don’t need to understand the subtle differences in Yugoslavian Marxism or Russian or Chinese or Cuban, because they all are forms of Marxism.
Further still, again, Communism comes after Socialism. It isn’t a form of Socialism.
Only if you define “socialism” only as “the transition period between capitalism and communism.”
And I do not. Because, again, I am not a Marxist-Leninist.
And it seems like you have some all-encompassing need to label everything, but I would say many people on the left do not subscribe to an individual label like you seem to think that they do.
Socialism is generally a form of society where public ownership and collectivization is the driving force of the economy. Communism is when that process is complete. There are various different forms and characteristics Socialism takes, but they all exist in motion and thus will either move on to Communism or revert to Capitalism. To call Communism a type of Socialism would be to call Capitalism a type of Feudalism, just because both have property owners, but this of course is not a good form of analysis.
I understand that you aren’t a Marxist-Leninist. I am, sure, but again I made the very clear case that the overwhelming majority of Leftism worldwide and historically has fallen under the categories of Marxism, which is without fail Communist, or Anarchist. These aren’t necessarily ML specific points of view, if you can point to major non-Marxist, non-Anarchist strains of Leftist practice that have any major relevance, then I can concede.
As for Leftists that don’t ascribe to labels, I don’t really care about what one individual is thinking, because I am not trying to prepare them for random internet leftist #18948 with their own specific eccentricities. I am talking in extremely broad and relevant distinctions, like what has actually existed and continues to exist.
This is just not true… We have seen that, in practice, this does not need to be true. For example, market socialism exists. Mixed economies exist (and thrive).
I look forward to hearing why none of those pass your purity test.
“Market Socialism,” if you mean the PRC’s Socialist Market Economy, is founded on Marxism. They maintain that they are working towards Communism and are working with a Marxian understanding of the economy. This isn’t about “purity,” rather, this is Marxist and is working towards Communism, so it’s a Communist ideology.
As for mixed economies, such a naming distinction is rather pointless. All economies are mixed, there exists no economy that does not have characteristics of the previous mode of production or the next. Whether a system is Capitalist or Socialist is determinate on what is primary in an economy, not what is “pure.”
Further still, no system is stagnant, competition forces centralization, so Market Socialism eventually works towards either a resurgance of Capitalism or progression to Communism.