Summary

Trump plans to lift the Biden administration’s freeze on supplying 2,000-pound bombs to Israel and reverse sanctions against Israeli settlers.

  • Fizz@lemmy.nz
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    9 hours ago

    Ok what would you do if your country was occupied like Palestine? Would you continue to fight Isreal and risk starting another war knowing full well every single war has been lost catastrophically?

    • acargitz@lemmy.ca
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      9 hours ago

      This is not a theoretical question for a Greek person. Here is what we would do:

      What would you do if your country was occupied?

      But even that ultimately is besides the point, because we are looking at the whole thing from the outside. For a more sober look, see my responses to LengAways below.

      • Fizz@lemmy.nz
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        6 hours ago

        You didn’t answer the question. Those events do not replicate the situation in Palestine. The situation in Palestine is so lopsided that war is just not a realistic option.

        If my country was occupied I would fight initially and for years after no matter how lopsided however if we got slaughtered multiple wars in a row i’d give up on violent resistance. If I was born in a country occupied for decades with a massive power difference like say china I would just live my life in whatever conditions existed. Things would be hard enough without getting bombed and sieged.

        • acargitz@lemmy.ca
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          6 hours ago

          The ottoman occupation of Greece lasted 400 years. Similar numbers for the Bulgarians, the Serbs, etc.The Irish fought for 800. The Poles for 120 years.

          If you come from a part of the world that has this history you understand what it means to not give up.

          • Fizz@lemmy.nz
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            4 hours ago

            You still dont answer the question. Why is this so hard for you to answer when you said I could ask this exact question? You can bring up history from a different part of the world but like I said before it’s not the same situation.

            The path to their own nation doesn’t come through attacks on surrounding countries. Do you think one day they are just going to suddenly win a war and gain their freedom?

            • acargitz@lemmy.ca
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              3 hours ago

              You’re free to not like my answer. And I reject your framing of “attacks on surrounding countries”. Palestine (West Bank and Gaza) is occupied. Entry and exit are controlled by Israel. Citizens living in those areas are required to register with Israeli authorities to have papers. Their freedoms are curtailed by Israeli military law. Their lives are at the mercy of the Israeli military, and Israeli paramilitaries (“settlers”). They are an occupied people, not some free country attacking their neighbour.

              My answer is that I refuse to criticize the Palestinians’ right to resist by any reasonable means they choose to the occupation and subjugation of their homeland and their people, the right to resist apartheid and genocide. They have every right to stay as “sumud” as they want. They are fighting for their freedom, and they have the right to violently resist occupation. That is a legal right(*), not to say also a moral patriotic imperative. Obviously, I draw a line at targeting civilians, of course, so Hamas’ atrocities against civilians in October 2023 were unambiguously inexcusable and criminal – but not so any legitimate violence they undertook against IDF personnel.

              Your question whether there is a chance that they will win a war to gain their freedom is therefore besides the point. But if I were to take it at face value, then first of all, well, yes, stranger things have happened. Ragtag bands of Greek revolutionaries, at the brink of defeat at the hands of Ibrahim Pasha saw their fortunes change due to a fortuitous change in international politics. A world war broke out and Britain could not maintain its grip on Ireland. But regardless, there are two ways of taking the question: tactically or morally. You can ask the tactical question: is war the best way to achieve Palestinian statehood. You can ask the moral question: is the toll of war worth the suffering. Both, but especially the latter, are not up to me or to you to answer, but for the Palestinians to decide. But even purely tactically, what the Palestinian fight can do is make it perennially costly for Israel to maintain the Occupation and the Apartheid. This makes it Israel’s and its allies job to find and propose a palatable political solution. They hold the power, they hold the cards, they hold the initiative, they created this mess, they must face the music and fix it. The Palestinians cannot be expected to just lay down and die or to go into exile just because Israelis want them to. So, are there things that can and should be done to promote peace? Of course, and as a western citizen I do what I can to push my government to act to help the situation. Peace is possible, if it comes with justice. No justice? Don’t expect peace. Simple as.

              But at no point will I point a finger at Palestinians and deny them the right to fight for freedom, a right that my ancestors bought with with their blood.

              (*) United Nations General Assembly Resolution 2625 (XXV), 1970

              Every State has the duty to refrain from any forcible action which deprives peoples referred to above in the elaboration of the present principle of their right to self-determination and freedom and independence. In their actions against, and resistance to, such forcible action in pursuit of the exercise of their right to self-determination, sucb peoples are entitled to seek and to receive support in accordance with the purposes and principles of the Charter.

    • Uruanna@lemmy.world
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      9 hours ago

      By calling it “starting a war” (which is a lie) and insisting that it has never gone well, you are implying that they should lie down and let Israel genocide them. Because that’s how that goes.

      • Fizz@lemmy.nz
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        6 hours ago

        Can you explain how its not “starting a war”. It seems like it was intentional to start a war.

        • acargitz@lemmy.ca
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          3 hours ago

          So long as Israel is occupying(*) Gaza and the West Bank, war has never stopped. There are truces, but there is no peace. So war did not “start” on Oct 7 2023. It just continued in a new phase. It also didn’t “end” last week. We have a ceasefire, not peace.

          See my other comment: Palestine (West Bank and Gaza) is occupied. Entry and exit are controlled by Israel. Citizens living in those areas are required to register with Israeli authorities to have papers. Their freedoms are curtailed by Israeli military law. Their lives are at the mercy of the Israeli military, and Israeli paramilitaries (“settlers”). They are an occupied people, not some free country attacking their neighbour.