The genocide is already accelerated. The Biden-Harris administration already gives Israel all of the material, military, and diplomatic support they need for genociding Gaza and ramping up against the West Bank, the latter being something that has already been happening for months. And people like yourself tolerated that, accepted that from “your” candidates, and fought against those for whom it was correctly a red line.

In short, both Biden and Harris would rather lose than be anything other than 100% materially supportive of Israel’s genocide. They made that choice and y’all backed them up on it. Time to own those decisions, the decision to lose in support of genocide, and do some self-criticism around how what you subscribed to was actually neither particularly strategic nor morally sound.

Biden and Harris already openly pledge unconditional material support to Israel in its genocide, organize Europe in this same direction, and go after anyone opposing them on this. Israel receives what it materially needs to do all pf this. Any further escalation in the West Bank will be done with materials, funds, and diplomatic cover provided by the Biden-Harris administration.

Biden and Harris feign empathy and try to run little games around redefining what a ceasefire is for PR purposes. But in terms of the basic reakity of supporting Israel to do whatever it wants to Palestinians, as in providing them the means they would otherwise nit have to do it, there is no sense in which they are less bad than Trump.

Harris did and does support genocide and if you tolerated that you should do some self-criticism.

And I think you will find that there has been no material difference in what “Israel” is actually doing. They’ve been ramping up occupation and violence in the West Bank for months, going in exactly this direction already. They murdered an American activist in the West Bank as part of this and swept it under the rug using the pretense of an “investigation”, remember? The West Bank is already occupied, it is already split into isolated districts, travel is already highly restricted, there are racist curfews for those who must commute to work in Israel, forced through several checkpoints and fearing jail for any delays, giving themselves 3 hour buffers for travel tine, and their government is compradors that work with the IOF to arrest and jail them and out down resistance movements.

The main difference between Dems and GOP on Israel is that Dems feign empathy and concern while Republicans are openly racist. But materially the outcomes are actually very similar, with Dems often being worse because they can more effectively count on your lack of dissent and in coordinating with Europe.

You might remember that there has been a US-backed genocide in Gaza for over a year, under a Dem, and they were willing to lose the election rather than stop supporting genocide.

Will do!

Right you accuse those that correct you of being paid Chinese agents. This is correctly understood as a racist response.

Hey look the person that refuses to read and makes racist comments is calling others fake lefties.

Typical sinophobe response

While I don’t want to reveal my academic background, I can say that in my work Chinese papers were just as good as if not better than those of other counteies. And to me seemed to be less focused on creating academic cliques.

Yes thank you for adding this!

UNRWA is the primary mechanism by which Gaza receives aid and runs its own institutions. It is a thorn in Israel’s side because they want control over all of that as well and are pissed that Gazans can direct resources where they want.

Nationalism and hard Nation-State borders are a consequence of capitalism, a social development involving tons of idiots. So yes and no.

“How dare you tell me to be against genocide”

The first point - Your previous comments made it seem as though you were saying only people in such position held that opinion. Whether you meant to or not.

I don’t think they did. I think you read it into it because you had a defensive response.

[Your story]

Thank you for contributing to and working with your community and thank you for sharing.

Then the genocide started. I have worked with people to design billboards for the issue. I have canvassed for them. I have been generally active, and helpful, as I can. There is an organization here called CAIR, it is national, I assume you know who they are.

Yes of course. It is a weak organization. I was curious to see if they had any recent news and looked at their website. They are hosting a gala in November at which Jamaal Bowman, who voted for the iron dome, will be present. I’m sure he is there because he was targeted due to even just taking a (late) milquetoast stance against Israel and then losing due to AIPAC, having abandoned any grassroots organizer-based strategy. CAIR has been largely excised from my local community because they compromise too heavily in exchange for nothing and are a vehicle for exactly the NGO climber types I’ve mentioned before. The community watches their people leave and then turn their backs. Of course, they do not say this very publicly, as family is important, but when having individual conversations, so many are happy that their kids are getting paid well but are unhappy that they spend their time with such groups.

I am returning to this point because it is important. These types of organizations are easily coopted and defanged, and they follow a single trajectory given their funding models and staffing methods. They split a community into those in them and those without, and those within them have a different interest and begin to socialize with the insiders. Even an org like CAIR, which is outside the mainstream of political discourse at least half the time, is impacted by this and sets its sights low and uses ineffectual methods of advocacy.

Through this exposure I have been around a number of this community large enough, to be the vast majority, locally, at one time or another. I have sat in meetings and listened to them talking. I have seen where they decide to apply their donated funds to take political action. I have a friend who translates discussions to english for me. There isn’t a huge group that are hard line on the idea of staying out of voting, in the presidential election, totally.

For clarity, you mentioned business cards many times. When you say community, do you mean a wide community of everyday people, or mostly business owners, heads of NGOs, and maybe imams?

A lot of those that are, discuss how white Americans have to participate, and while they will stand out, they urge that, if you are going to vote, vote for Harris.

“A lot” can mean 3 or 7 or 50. There are, of course, some people who advocate for this. But the idea that they are even outnumbered by those opposed it completely alien to my experience and, if you don’t believe that to be enough (as you have your own experience), it is also in disagreement with the polls, including those done by CAIR!

The reasons I have been given for this, is simple, while no party is good for them, and the US immigration practices are most often hostile, unlike the people you know, they saw a very noticeable increase of activity from the government, against their community, when Trump put forth his anti-muslim sentiment.

They are currently the worst they have been since 9/11, per the very nice and opinionated uncles my community. It goes in waves.

My cousin’s law firm says they experienced a large spike in cases during that time, as well, particularly ones that the government “lost” (as in it was deemed illegal/unconstitutional, but too late now, and no one was punished).

What does your cousin say about now, the last year? Are you near any college campuses or places where actions take place? The current islamophobia is focused on targeting those who take actions resisting the genocide, generally targeted by Zionists with doxxing and harassment that they leverage into calls for expulsions and deportations. While fascists are often doing this, people that present themselves as liberals also do so.

One of the big, specific, things they discuss is that long term, established, people, in their community, started to be targeted, where as, previously, their was no question about their immigration status, or position as Americans. They saw a lot more prying into who they were related to, arbitrary contact with individuals, etc. They saw a lot more of these people being taken by ICE, and deported.

This did not stop under Biden, in my area. There is still constant fear.

As the situation has gotten more desperate they have been using their local businesses to reach out to non-middle eastern customers, and some have literally been putting pamphlets, explaining the situation, in their bag, as they check them out.

It reeeally sounds like you mostly talk to business owners.

Don’t get me wrong, they don’t like Harris. They see one that is not backing off selling weapons to Israel, and the other is vowing to take an active role in accelerating the genocide

This is foolish, of course, as the Biden-Harris administration is actively doing the genocide and they are extremely competent at ensuring its continuation at full steam. Israel is already doing, more or less, whatever it wants outside of implied restraints on how to attacks Iran. This is why the position you present is a minority position among both Palestinian Americans and the wider muslim community.

so they are either voting the former, or suggesting that other Americans do so, because they are in the extreme of the rock and a hard place analogy. There is no good choice, there is only the possibility of, some level of, harm reduction.

There is a good choice. You vociferously oppose the genocide and have discipline.

Those interested in electoralism often talk about “accountability” and “pushing” for things. This is the chance to test that theory. If a person will still vote for a genocider candidate, what does accountability mean to them? Nothing, of course.

Re: harm reduction, again, this is the administration doing the genocide, supporting it to the hilt. There is no harm reduction here, it is full-steam-ahead genocide. These are bog standard Dem PR talking points, not the common positions of real people affected by this.

There is more, but I have explained enough of my personal life, for you to get the picture.

To be honest I’m not sure why you’re sharing so much of your personal life, though it is nice of you to do so. I think it would be good for you to share less information, for your own security.

Proud?

Sure, but you better make sure that you do it before January 6th, because if Trump wins, it is not going to take very long for Netanyahu to kill every Palestinian in Gaza.

Netanyahu already has unconditional support from the US. You cannot just pretend your way into putting a bigger gun to someone’s head. The Biden-Harris regime is genociding Gaza and rather than oppose it, you are defending them.

But I’m sure by then you will have found some way to absolve yourself (either that, or it’s literally the outcome you want).

I require no absolution, I work against genocide.

You betray your guilty conscience with your incredibly selective responses, though.

So, you admit that not voting for Dems you vote Trump

Since I wouldn’t vote for Trump, this is obviously not true. But by your logic, since I’m also not voting for GOPers that means I voted for Harris so don’t worry.

but you just think that it’s no big deal, because last time he failed to break everything he touched?

I see no reason to think Trump was more harmful than Biden-Harris. But at the moment, I’m focused on the normalization of genocide by Democratic voters.

Edit: it’s a pity there’s no travelling to alternative timelines, I’d really love to see what Trump’s victory would lead to, but wouldn’t want to live in that reality.

Trump is ahead in many polls. He could win. If he does, how will you feel about selling out Palestinians?

Neither of those genocides and your reference to them cheapens the term and distracts from your actual knowing support for genocide. Instead of reaching for the quick excuse to stop thinking, do some introspection on why you are okay with normalizing genocide.

Out of respect, I would like to venter Palestinians and the genocide they are facing, but I will discuss what you’d like about China and Russia in another thread. Feel free to make one and link it here.

I have already described some of it throughout this thread. One if the things I do is organize with and among Palestinians to engage in actions and organization building.

Your turn.

You should be against genocide