zeus ⁧ ⁧ ∽↯∼

Aye so bottom line, we’re stuck with what exists until new formats are forced upon everybody… ¯\_(ツ)_/¯

yeah… :(

Raw isn’t a format, it’s supposed to just be unaltered stream from the imager, so every camera model is unique in that regard. But DNG is a way to describe that data so it’s more readable to programs unfamiliar with the specific model. And well, some makers prefer to use their own proprietary models.

ah fair enough, i didn’t know that

Actually AAC is mostly Apple’s format and support for it is pretty great. I’m not super familiar with the details but it sounds like a similar situation as with webp.

is it? i didn’t think any android players supported it apart from specifically apple music? and i’m pretty sure ms’ groove music couldn’t play them^?

It’s not. The web site you’re uploading to has to support it to allow you the upload in the first place, and to process it to make previews or lower-res versions for the web pages or apps.

alright yeah i guess. to be honest i was more talking about using images i’ve made on my own site, or publishers using an image format on their own websites. as for uploading to other sites it’s a complete mess: even tumblr doesn’t allow uploading webp, but it then automatically converts to webp which makes a horrible blurry mess

Do believe me, recently I’ve started converting those I want to keep to mp4 and I’m saving gigabytes.

i wasn’t being sarcastic! i do believe you. and yeah, i’d do the same

It’s not all that well supported in lots of those cases I mention. And where it did get, it only got because Apple has actually billions of devices out there and has the power to make the format default among them with one worldwide update. Yet it still has to convert to jpg when sharing elsewhere by default. That’s how huge the resistance is.

sorry, i was talking about jxl here. i agree heif hasn’t got anywhere; but that is, again, mostly due to licencing issues (unsurprisingly, given it’s apple)

I’m not advocating for these formats specifically (definitely not jpeg2000 haha), but I’m saying licences and royalties aren’t that super important when it comes to how supported something becomes.

Hell look at Apple… Everything is proprietary.

yeah exactly - none of apple’s formats are supported outside of apple devices (and i guess itunes for windows)

Or when it comes to formats, mp3 is still the most widely supported audio format (non-free), and DivX has been the most widely supported video format for much longer than anything else… Also non-free.

that’s a fair point, and i can’t really explain that - i can only assume it’s big for the same reason as gif: it was good enough at the time, and got standardised by cds

Haha hardware camera makers are the slowest dinosaurs when it comes to technology. Took them fucking ages for some to support DNG raw format, and before h264 was already getting grey, most would record videos only in mjpeg.

really? now admittedly i don’t know much about cameras, but i’ve had a couple of filmmaker friends and i was under the impression raw was universally supported

But it’s more about phone cameras anyway. And well with those we’ll only have webp and heif at most, so I guess we have to deal with that anyway.

i’m not sure about that - even google camera doesn’t support webp (i mean, it’s called “web picture”, i think they see it as a web format primarily). i think phone cameras will continue to be solely jpg for a long time

Maybe if Mozilla had not abandoned their FF OS, maybe that would’ve been a camera supporting jpegxl now.

that’d be nice. i do wish mozilla wasn’t so catastrophically mismanaged all around

That’s not how people use images. For an image format to be viable, you need your camera to support it, your gallery app/program to support it, the web sites you upload it to, the messaging platforms you share it through.

yes. i agree. but that’s my exact point. if i make an image then upload it to the internet - the only software that’s involved is on my side (gimp, ps, whatever^[1]) and the browser of the person viewing it. if it was supported in chromium, that’s automatically available in chrome, edge, vivaldi, brave, discord, element, spotify, whatever other chromium-embedded or electron apps you care to name. given the (unfortunate) prominence of electron-based programmes nowadays; that’s good enough for anyone who isn’t a professional, and they’re already fine. fuck it, it has the joint photographic experts group behind it - they’re quite a big name in photography

Oh you’d be surprised… Gaming videos on Steam, screen recordings, porn clips by amateurs, or just random clips, the amount of low-res gifs with 10s of MB in size is crazy.

meh, i haven’t seen any in the past ~5 years apart from ones specifically chosen for that 256 colour æsthetic; but i will believe you

Sure, it’s shitty of Google to drop the support, but from experience I’m still unfortunately 100% sure it wouldn’t have gotten anywhere.

Heck, Apple has been using HEIF for years and that’s a trillion dollar company with a huge market share, and you still get shitton of places where you can’t use it.

it did get places. it has got places. again, it’s very new and is already well supported

jpeg2k failed because of licencing and royalty issues^[2]. heif hasn’t spread because of licencing and royalty issues. ^{in my personal opinion, webp has licencing issues.} png didn’t. jpeg (sort of) didn’t. jxl doesn’t.

but anyways, this isn’t a pro-jxl comment; it’s an anti-webp comment. i used jxl as an example of why webp, and its adoption, is making the web worse even though it’s better than png from a technical standpoint

Sorry, 5 graphics programs isn’t “support”. You need support from the millon mobile apps, web sites and image and web libraries. A format that you can only use by yourself or with a handful professionals is useless in practice.

i gave those because they’re the most pertinent programmes for people dealing with creating & editing images. there are mobile (or at least android) libraries; and web is the issue i’m talking about - it’s hampered by chromium. there are more here if you’re interested.

and i’d say that’s not bad for a format that’s only a few years old

Ed: look at the list of formats supported by XnView

i don’t know what this is supposed to mean. xnview supports jxl

There’s been hundreds of new image formats in the last ~20 years, and none has gotten anywhere.

because png is good. i’m not defending gif or jpeg, they suck. but png is simple, fast to decode, and open by design. there have been better formats, but not paradigm shiftingly better. it may not be the best as an image format, but it is good

Even PNG needed a decade for some things to support it properly, and that one really had a brand new massive use case.

yeah that’s my point, jxl has been adopted faster than png or webp (it was only officially standardised in 2022!)

People use gif to make videos for crying out loud, and bitch about webp all the time, that’s how massive the pushback against new formats is.

i really don’t think many people use gif. most people use gifv or similar (usually webm) without realising it. apart from its very specific use case, gif sucks; so most software automatically converts to something else

Do you really think jpegxl would get anywhere by itself? No, it would be the same as with jpeg2000 and tons of other formats - first supported by a handful of programs, but not used by anyone else and then forgotten.

jpeg2k had major issues other than a lack of support - jxl has deliberately avoided those pitfalls

jpegxl actually has pretty good support - affinity, photoshop, gimp, krita, etc. all support it fine

it’s only chrome/electron that’s holding it back (even firefox supported it until chrome dropped support). i don’t think it’s lazyness

i have no love for gif (hence i use apng), but all the other alternatives are either videos so show controls by default, not widely supported, or webp. i realise webp is objectively the better format for most things, but i still argue it’s existence is a net negative effect

webp may be open (although actually i’d argue it isn’t, the licences for the decoder and the format itself are both very woolly), but as it’s actively contributing to enshittification by holding back truly open formats i’d say that doesn’t really matter

now whilst i know why people like webp, maybe we could stop using formats owned by google…

until jpegxl becomes viable (which it mainly isn’t because it compete[s/d] with webp), lets stick to nice formats not owned by tech giants, like apng^?

well that’s better than i expected^[1]. thank you for answering!

just out of interest db0, did this thread in any way change your opinion on webp?^[1] i’m just constructing a pet theory on internet discussions

(sorry to necro an old thread, and i’m sure you have other things on your plate right now; i’m just interested)

(also completely off-topic; i’m surprised your blog still has the wordpress favicon. i would have thought you of all people would have changed that)

at the time; the great suspender (although that’s dead on chrome now too)

project naptha is the only one that has stuck with me since i left chrome, and has no firefox alternative to my knowledge

did you click the thing saying that you understand analogies?

i’m not making a moral comment on anything, including piracy. i’m saying “but it’s part of my established workflow” is not an excuse for something morally wrong.

pirating photoshop is a well-understood part of many peoples’ workflows. that doesn’t make it legal or condoned by adobe

lemm.ee was talking about using cloudflare (i can’t remember whether he went through with it), which will almost certainly implement this. lemmy.world already does. there is no good outcome from this going through where this only blocks google sites from firefox.

even if there was, that still means you can’t open any gdrive links you find on the internet, use a youtube tutorial to fix something, use the play store to buy any apps (because if they integrate this into chrome, they will integrate it into the play store), etc.

edit 2023-08-10:

hey guess what engywuck, lemm.ee uses cloudflare now:

good luck accessing lemm.ee from non-chromium if this goes through

in fact view you probably won’t be able to view any embedded youtube videos at all. people would have to go back to hosting their own videos which would push hosting costs up, which would raise the barrier of entry to people making their own sites. which is something we want to encourage

i don’t.^[1] but like it or not, chrome dictates what the internet does now. there’s no point in sites hosting jpegxl images if ~3% of their users will see it, and there’s no point in firefox developing a decoder if no sites host jpegxl. so even though it’s objectively better, and is highly supported by non-browser programmes; it has no recourse for gaining traction on the web

i personally have had no compatibility issues with webp - i would just rather my image formats are not owned by google, really. i would much rather use jpegxl, but chrome doesn’t support it because it competes with webp and we couldn’t have that, could we.

but also it’s that webp only works if you convert to webp manually, i find. their automatic conversion just ruins the colours (particularly on pixel art). plus, i do actually prefer png. i can edit what i want in a hex editor, whereas i can’t seem to do that with webp.

i have a browser extension that refuses webp, so i get served png where possible; but i can’t make sure that images i upload are served as png for others

nah, i don’t even really use tumblr because it is so painful to use. actually, it was their link shortener that was the last straw^[1]. i’m just saying i don’t think it’s a site that can ever exist again.

reddit is just a link aggregator, that’s easy to recreate. twitter is just individual paragraphs, as long as there are people any site will work. tumblr is so broken that it’s used exclusively by people who started using it in the 00s, when it was popular, and never left. they’re not really what i’d call friends, more monkeys in a zoo to laugh at. but as it’s so broken and opaque to start using, it was never marauded by children; so everyone on there is in their 30s but pretending they’re not.

it’s a coincidence that can never happen again, as any alternative site would first be used by techie early adopters, who would be on average younger than most of the tumblr userbase. maybe we’ll get another tumblr in 10 years though

i don’t think there can be. tumblr’s draw isn’t any features it has (apart from maybe homepage customisation, but you get that with a website) it’s the features it lacks (algorithms, etc). and it’s the community, which was curated by a lot of coincidences at the right time.

you’d need to get everyone to up and move at once, with the ability to reblog posts from old tumblr. i think it’s unreplicatable