Summary
Tesla replaced many laid-off U.S. workers with foreign H-1B visa holders after a 2024 wave of layoffs affecting 15,000 employees.
These visas, tied to employer sponsorship, often lower compensation and give employers significant leverage over workers.
Critics argue this displaces U.S. employees, as senior engineers were replaced by lower-paid junior engineers.
CEO Elon Musk, while advocating for expanding H-1B visa caps, faces backlash, especially from conservatives, for “job-stealing” concerns.
Musk contends there’s a U.S. skill shortage, but critics highlight potential exploitation tied to Tesla’s demanding work culture and visa dependence.
There is no skill shortage, the skill shortage is absolute bullshit. There is nothing you can learn in a College Classroom that they can’t teach you in the field 9 out of 10 times
It is what it has always been. A desire to fill six figure positions with people willing to do them for the minimum wage. (Protip: The exchange rate exists)
Not even just that, H1-Bs are about two steps shy of importing slave labor. Once you’re here in the US, you have to stay continually employed. If you don’t become a citizen or gain another type of visa, you get deported if you’re not working for a sponsoring company for more than 30 days. Companies continually use this to ensure compliance from workers who might otherwise complain about things like working conditions or pay or long hours.
The American Elite considers the poor lazy because we do not work for free.
I can’t really speak for other areas, but at least in Science and Engineering what a College does that you don’t get “in the field” (because it doesn’t directly lead to operational results so you don’t get the time to learn it) is the foundations for the work you do, so the Mathematics and the “why” certain things work as they work rather than merely the “how” to do it (or at least it did back when I got my degree 3 decades ago).
Mind you, in my experience your “9 out 10 times” point is probably right at least in what I do - Software Development - that kind of knowledge is only useful in a fraction of the work for a fraction of the people, generally the kind of developer who is a “tool maker” rather than just a “tool user” working in things which are stretching the envelope of what can be done and are innovative or unusual technically (so, not “innovative” business models, which are what most of Tech Startups do nowadays), which might actually be an even worse ratio than 1 in 10 for those people vs the general universe in even just Software Development (much less Tech in general).
I supposed that what I’m trying to say is that at least in Tech you’re not going to be all that great at doing work which extends the boundaries of what is possible without the kind of foundations a good Science or Engineering degree will give you - hence there is value in such education - but the vast majority of people in even the supposedly expert positions in Tech aren’t extending the boundaries of what is possible, not even close.
(In other words, I’m expanding on what you said rather than disagreeing with it)
Indeed, maybe I should try to see if I can get a better job than janitor.
Maybe it would help this country a lot if businesses were encouraged to not require college degrees for as many positions. I mean the fact that they’re trying to hire people from third world countries who aren’t exactly “Harvard Material” for these gigs, I mean I’m not calling them dumb, heavens no. But in those kinds of places I wouldn’t be surprised to find out they’re still using Windows Vista if you know what I mean, basic computer literacy isn’t as common in these regions as it is here… So that kinda gives up the game right there doesn’t it?
The problem is that what people need in the environment we live in (i.e. Capitalism) is monetisable skills, whilst often College Degrees, whilst teaching people things that are very hard, if not impossible, to learn elsewhere, do not in fact provide people with monetisable skills. A good example would be most Arts Degrees. I was lucky that my natural inclination was towards Science and Engineering and that I had a knack for Programming, but had I gone done the other direction that I had a bit of a knack for - Acting - my life would’ve been totally different (judging by some acquaintances of mine from that world, it would’ve been a way way harder life in the financial sense).
As for the hiring people from third world countries, in the case of India (if that’s one of the ones you mean), having had several colleagues from there and from talking to them it seems that whilst indeed most people don’t even have basic computer literacy (I’m not even sure if being able to read and write is something that a majority of people can do there), there are people that do have access to the same stuff as in Developed Countries (at worst they just pirate it) and even though they’re a small fraction of all people, in a country with so many people it still adds to a larger number. Companies abroad aren’t hiring the poor countryside illiterate people who can’t even speak English (I believe most people in India can’t), they’re hiring the Middle and Upper Middle class from over there and given the massive, massive inequality there, those did have access to modern computers and software.
Same thing would apply to places like South America - lots of poor people who are totally computer illiterate (often just plain illiterate in the general sense) but a minority did have access to all the same things as in Developed countries - most having maybe not as powerful computers and using mostly pirated software, but still the same stuff.
That said, I totally agree that college degrees shouldn’t be required for many positions they are required for nowadays. The degrees there aren’t really required because they teach things needed or even useful for those positions, they’re required because there’s an imbalance of offer vs demand for those jobs (too many candidates, too few jobs) so those hiring just put that requirement there because “we lose nothing from doing it and, who knows, maybe the degree will come in handy at some point” plus they’re kind of an easy way to thin the applications.
If the job market was tighter demanding degrees for jobs not requiring them would stop. And, yeah, at least in certain areas the mainstream parties helping out business interests by giving away work visas like confetti is the reason why the job market is not as tight in many areas as it would naturally be.
He was raised by parents who made their money on slave labour in an apartheid state, sooooo…
H1B is just corporations trying to drive down tech wages. Things is, the “skilled workers” they get from other countries are often unskilled who just learn as best they can on the job. I deal with one of the big companies that supplies these workers and the vast majority of their personnel are “bodies.” You may have 1-2 fairly skilled people leading the team while the rest are folks who can follow a script if it’s written well enough… Zero critical thinking or depth of knowledge.
While the short term may seem beneficial on paper, you get what you pay for. You can’t fake your way without longer term problems showing up.
It’s also another form of job exporting like the manufacturing jobs that corporations got rid of, and we know what that did to the US.
I’m good with a massive reduction on H1B.
They want workers who can’t jumo to another company. If an H1B worker quits, they get deported.
It’s about indentured servitude.
I deal with one of the big companies that supplies these workers and the vast majority of their personnel are “bodies.”
InfoSys. My issue with these folks is that generally speaking they go into programming because it’s a lucrative career, not because they have even a mild interest in it as an activity. I’ve encountered a few exceptions to this in my career, but they’re extremely rare.
InfoSys. My issue with these folks is that generally speaking they go into programming because it’s a lucrative career, not because they have even a mild interest in it as an activity.
My experience with H-1Bs has been very much like that. Although during the dot-com bubble and again more recently, I’ve experienced more than a few citizens in the same camp, too. The same type of person that learned to spell HTML in a bid to make it rich during the dot-com bubble is now the same type that you see trying to LARP as a “front-end developer” in React or what have you. That’s if they aren’t trying to flex on people by talking about something like Rust or have debates about htmx, SPAs, or whatever the fuck, but not really producing working, well-tested code that meets the business need or what have you, even if it’s not in the language/framework of the Youtube channel they happen to be following…
I’ve noticed during a downturn/layoff session, they might not get rooted out right away, as some of the citizen programmers have priced themselves wayyyy under market probably because they know they are posing. But I think ultimately many of them do migrate to management, testing, documentation, or something else on the periphery of the actual work of programming. That, or leave the field entirely.
Yeah, I’ve seen incredibly wide ranges of talent both in seeking out dirt-cheap labor in places like India or Pakistan via offshoring engagements - most of that range being on the very, very low-quality range. I was not convinced it was even the same people working on it from week to week. For one of the projects, the “design”, such as it was, was so bad that it was something that required a rewrite by skilled citizens. So they saved no money at all on that one.
A few - very few - of the people I’ve worked with that were H-1B were good enough, and like one or two that were pretty good. Nothing that needed to be sourced outside of the pool of citizens, though. Most of them struck me as people kind of still halfway through an undergrad program or maybe a boot camp in skill level and general knowledge of IT.
I’d welcome killing H-1B completely and taxing services for offshoring to a high enough extent to discourage it. People were told to get educated, get a degree, go to boot camp, and have a job with semblance of dignity. And the broligarchs and government work hand-in-glove to fuck over Americans that did the right thing while fucking over foreigners? To hell with that.
On the other hand, I think we should be pushing for more enterprising and smart people to come here, permanently. It’s good for those that want to come here, and it’s good for America, too, since they are likely to make things better here, both by contributing to the taxes. I think foreigners tend to start more businesses than natives, too. I think it’s exceedingly stupid and short-sighted to bring people here, exploit them, but also give them lots of on the job experience, then send them home afterwards? How is that the American dream?
I still think the brain drain donvict 1.0 started by scaring off foreign students is going to hurt us long term. We might not have felt the effects just yet, and now he’s going to have another chance to make it even worse. But abusing H-1Bs and screwing citizens is not going to address the brain drain problem.
Wouldn’t you fix this with some basic safeguards for those in h1-b programs though? Like require six months of seperation or something. Ive worked 18 years in the industry and met a lot of great engineers on that program but I always found it to be very exploitative. I’ve also meet a lot of US born engineers that are complete idiots just chasing the money so I don’t find it to be a where you were born kind of thing.
Oh, of course. There are very stupid people in every nation, and very bright people in every nation. It’s not like Americans (or Indians) have some kind of innate talent related to software that no other people have, though I’ve often heard people opine for both positions, and man, is that stupid.
Also, I think I mentioned on this thread that I’ve worked with some people that just had no affinity for the field, many of them were definitely citizens. But maybe it was another thread.
As for the safeguards - I am unsure. I think a lot of things would have to be put in place to protect against exploitation of both citizens and foreign labor. I think the best option would be just to scrap the program entirely and instead make sure expedited immigration is easier. If companies want to help someone through that process, fine, but the individual is under no obligations to that company in the end state - they have permanent citizenship if they wish. No more driving down wages and no more throwing away workers at the end of 3 or 6 years like they are used tissues…
Yea that’s fair. Just decouple the two things I suppose. But knowing us we’d just get rid of it and not fix actual legal immigration.
Slaves. He’s building an army of slaves.
Is there any politician that actually stands up to tech? It’s like a cheat code that not even Trump is immune to. Nobody wants to be politician who says no to those nerds who use “innovation” as a weapon. Except most of the tech industry is rather useless but everyone is too afraid to be accused of being tech illiterate. We’re not losing anything by saying no to the 10000th buzzword salad tech company making yet another useless widget.
The continued disempowerment of American unions and American worker solidarity over many decades ultimately culminates with this overt power grab by American Capitalists. Others here have rightly pointed out that these foreign workers are fleeing their own capitalistic nightmares (oftentimes imposed on them long ago by an imperialistic western hegemony), and thusly are not truly to blame for wanting to come to America with the prospect of making a better life for themselves and their loved ones.
Even if some of them might be aware that their coming here and taking jobs for lower wages has a negative impact on domestic labor, their impetus remains the same: escape poverty, keep your head down, fulfill your employer mandated duties, and survive.
Let’s not miss the forest for the trees here. As George Carlin put it, American coorporate business owners want only one thing from their workers: obedience.
“Well we know what they want. They want OBEDIENT WORKERS! OBEDIENT WORKERS! Just smart enough to run all the machines, and do all the paperwork. And just dumb enough to passively accept all these increasingly shittier jobs…”
The long term model for Capitalists across the globe has been to cripple the rights of workers over multiple generations if necessary.
This is because they think we deserve nothing. The fact that they provide us the means to survive is something they feel we should be grateful for. But for us to ask, nay demand, to survive with dignity? That is blasphemy to them.
In regards to dignity, they see that as little more than a business transaction. How much profit did you make them last quarter is directly equivalent to the amount of dignity they will afford you, as long as you also bend the knee and kiss the ring every day.
They look to places like China or India with their terrible working conditions and worker compliance and salivate at a future where American labor is no different. They look to those same places and lust after the crushing of political dissent and resistance movements that exist there.
This is the model they are now bringing to the people of America. And they know many of us won’t stand for it, but ultimately resistance movements are not preventative, but rather palliative, giving them the advantage of the aggressor. I’ve always said and truly believed, “Americans will never bend the knee for a King. Never.”
But obviously I was wrong, and naive. Trump is forming his monarchy. America was born out of hatred for monarchs. Yet through our own vile prejudices, hatreds, and other weaknesses, we have plagued the world over with our ideologies through war, imperialism, colonialism. I know a true nightmare is manifesting here now. All that is left for us now is to go to our respective hills, and die on them.
EDIT: wording.
Only this time, it’s real!
“They” being some duplicitous Capitalist.
Why the need to specify “duplicitous”?
It’s a good SAT word
They have been doing it since the 90s, at least.
If anyone has watched the first season of Squid Game, this is precisely what the show has been making a point of. Both locals and foreigners are exploited by the owner-class. That being said, does Elon watch dystopian movies and shows and actually copies them for the lols?
Google has been doing the same. Hell, I reckon most big corps have
Lol. Lmao.
So much for make America great again…
This was sarcasm if anyone was wondering
Great for billionaires. Make workers desperate, scared, docile, and cheap.
Come on now, this is all parody. No one was upset about H1Bs until two minutes ago when musk started infighting with maga.
These people and their ancestors have not paid taxes or contributed to the US in anyway. Younger people are struggling with the cost of life and now are being displaced by cheaper workers from India/Pakistan/Bangladesh/Africa who don’t mind living in bad conditions and get paid unfairly.
Are you purposefully playing the perfect rube? Exploited immigrants are not the bad guy here, the owning class is.
They do pay taxes while they are working under the visa program: https://www.irs.gov/individuals/taxation-of-alien-individuals-by-immigration-status-h-1b#%3A~%3Atext=If+the+H-1B+alien%2Cunder+an+income+tax+treaty.
Removed by mod
Huh, shocking.
Capitalist doing capitalist things.
As is (sadly) becoming tradition.
